THEME BY PISTACHI-O

"I want to be strong I want to laugh along,
I want to belong to the living ."  - Joni Mitchell, All I Want

ourlightsinvain:

onionjulius:

image

ourlightsinvain replied to your post “I really don’t like it how, like, Sansa has to learn that she was…”

i’m not sure i would put brienne in this category honestly (or arya, but brienne more so), but i agree that grrm has a semi-simplistic view of misfits vs cool kids and that comes through a lot in the “True Starks” vs “Tullyish Starks” sigh

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that Brienne is someone that the narrative suggests that other people should apologize to, the way it seems to with Tyrion and Jon (IMO), but neither does she have a lot of apologizing to do.  When she aqnd Arya and Asha make mistakes, they’re “just” tactical errors, they don’t really seem to reflect poorly on their character. With Sansa, Cat and Arianne, I think it’s different. Dany makes the kind of mistakes that I think would qualify as reflecting poorly on character, but her victims so to speak are all non-POV’s (and eastern?) so it doesn’t bother anyone as much.

Oh, what I was getting at more with Brienne is that I think Brienne is characterized as being a lot more naive relative to other young(ish) adults—in the “sheltered, arrogant popular kid” vs “wiser, more cynical unpopular kid” dichotomy you’re referring to that GRRM falls into, Brienne’s a little hard to classify in the same category as Jon and Arya and Tyrion, because while all of the latter three make mistakes and have major areas of naivete, they ARE kind of set up as nonconformist voices of reason.  Whereas Brienne’s virtuous and brave and talented, to be sure, but she has the kind of embarrassing limerent crush on Renly that is way more characteristic of Sansa than Arya and the kind of innocently rigid moral code people are always accusing Ned of (she’s much YOUNGER than Ned, mind, so that doesn’t reflect poorly on her).  What I mean is—I think Brienne’s set up as way more naive, and even sometimes unflatteringly naive, than the rest of the people in that category.

That’s not to say that GRRM doesn’t have a characterization trend of favoring these heroic misfits (Lyanna in absentia!) over people who’ve learned to function more conventionally; I just disagree that Brienne is in the same favoritism-to-the-point-of-flattening category as Dany and Jon and Tyrion.  Not that she’s not an authorial favorite, obvs, but she gets to be…… uncool more with her character flaws, a la Sansa.  Not to Sansa’s EXTENT, but still.

I didn’t feel like naivete/cynicism could really be split up that way, I suppose. Arianne is naive in a lot of ways but she’s also maniuplative which is … Wrong. Catelyn is probably roughly the same, when it comes down to it, she’s obviously more into plots and plotics than Ned, who gets to be the pure good one. Sansa is pretty much naive as can be, but all the people she admires, Lannisters and Tyrells and whatnot, they’re not naive or simple. I think Brienne’s naivete can be embarrassing but I personally felt that they narrative has more sympathy for crimes of naivete than Regina George crimes of snobbery and manipulation. People in the story are horrible to Brienne for her naivete but it’s hard to imagine that the narrative doesn’t want the reader to feel the exact opposite by showing that.

I honestly don’t think she’s an authorial favorite on the level of Tyrion, Jon, Arya and Dany, but I do think that she’s characterized as more of a freak than a popular girl and I think that’s kind of the difference. I’m not trying to conflate this particular thing with all of GRRM’s favoritisms though I think it’s part of it.

I think Brienne is way too much like Ned for GRRM to think that she’s really as flawed as pretty women who want things that make geeky awkward men feel bad.

ourlightsinvain replied to your post “I really don’t like it how, like, Sansa has to learn that she was…”

i’m not sure i would put brienne in this category honestly (or arya, but brienne more so), but i agree that grrm has a semi-simplistic view of misfits vs cool kids and that comes through a lot in the “True Starks” vs “Tullyish Starks” sigh

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that Brienne is someone that the narrative suggests that other people should apologize to, the way it seems to with Tyrion and Jon (IMO), but neither does she have a lot of apologizing to do.  When she aqnd Arya and Asha make mistakes, they’re “just” tactical errors, they don’t really seem to reflect poorly on their character. With Sansa, Cat and Arianne, I think it’s different. Dany makes the kind of mistakes that I think would qualify as reflecting poorly on character, but her victims so to speak are all non-POV’s (and eastern?) so it doesn’t bother anyone as much.

I really don’t like it how, like,

Sansa has to learn that she was foolish about Joffrey and admit her part in Ned’s death

Cat has to learn she was wrong about going south and wanting evil southern things for her children and admit her part in the events of the war

Arianne has to learn she was playing with politics irresponsibly and admit her part in Myrcellas wounds and Arys’ death

But Jon Snow emerged from the womb wiser and more rational and more discerning than everyone else and Arya never does anything without her heart in the most perfect of places and Brienne is never less than pure and sympathetic and Tyrion is always the one in the room with the wisest advice

Because obviously if you were the popular girl in school and you had priorities that didn’t align with the poor geeky guys and the girls who actually liked them you deserve to have the weight of murder on your conscience or some shit.

There’s like nothing in fandom that makes me happy any more, at best I’m smugly righteous and that’s it.

ourloveissemperfii:

"One day in the subway, James saw a red cat with a wound to the leg that likely resulted from a fight with another cat. It was obvious that the cat needed help. James could not pass and took the cat to the vet. With a little medical treatment and prescription drugs, the cat quickly recovered. At that point, James found it impossible to say goodbye to Street Cat Bob. Bob followed James everywhere he went. As James played the guitar on the street and Bob sat nearby, revenues increased dramatically. People found it difficult to pass when they looked at the cute kitty. James went on to write a book describing their adventures in the street which was full of life – both dramatic and comedic. In the book, James says that he could not have imagined how meeting Bob would change his life. His friendship with the cat healed him from a life that had been very hard. Most likely, if Bob could speak, he would say the same thing.”

bobdylan-n-jonimitchell:


"The only time it bothered me that someone sounded like me was when I was living in Phoenix, Arizona, in about ‘72 and the big song at the time was "Heart of Gold." I used to hate it when it came on the radio. I always liked Neil Young, but it bothered me every time I listened to "Heart of Gold." I think it was up at number one for a long time, and I’d say, "Shit, that’s me. If it sounds like me, it should as well be me."
I needed to lay back for awhile, forget about things, myself included, and I’d get so far away and turn on the radio and there I am. But it’s not me. It seemed to me somebody else had taken my thing and had run away with it and, you know, I never got over it.”

Bob Dylan on Neil Young’s Heart of Gold

bobdylan-n-jonimitchell:

"The only time it bothered me that someone sounded like me was when I was living in Phoenix, Arizona, in about ‘72 and the big song at the time was "Heart of Gold." I used to hate it when it came on the radio. I always liked Neil Young, but it bothered me every time I listened to "Heart of Gold." I think it was up at number one for a long time, and I’d say, "Shit, that’s me. If it sounds like me, it should as well be me."

I needed to lay back for awhile, forget about things, myself included, and I’d get so far away and turn on the radio and there I am. But it’s not me. It seemed to me somebody else had taken my thing and had run away with it and, you know, I never got over it.”

Bob Dylan on Neil Young’s Heart of Gold

The past few months have made me realize how much more I care about rock and roll than fantasy fiction.

thisfalconwhite asked: Regarding Trystane being cast as Doran's "son and heir": I know you've mentioned that we need to be prepared for a lot of cuts for Feast/Dance. D&D know how it all ends, so they know what to cut. I love Arianne and Quentyn, but I honestly can't think of a reason that they are absolutely necessary to the overall story. I can't think of anything they've done that can't be shifted to another character on screen. It's been a while since I read Feast/Dance, so what are your thoughts on this?

boiledleather:

onionjulius:

boiledleather:

IDK man, IDK. I mean, with regards to Trystane being written up as Doran’s “son and heir” (of a shyness that is criminally vulgar), PR is not canon, so there’s that. And Arianne could still come later, so there’s that too — keep in mind Doran wasn’t listed on the original casting sheet either.

So. I suppose you’re right that Arianne could be excised without doing much violence to the story, but I think that’s way less true of her than it is of Quentyn, the Vito Spatafore of Game of Thrones. If you cut Arianne you needs must make up a whole lot of Dornish stuff to replace it, presumably by beefing up Myrcella. As a substitution, that’s not exactly the disaster it’s being made out to be, I guess? I dunno, it’s a bummer, even though I think Arianne’s awesomeness has been greatly exaggerated in terms of presenting her as some kind of role model. Cool character, not so cool a role model. IDK, IDK.

This is not, in any way, a way I like to interact with art, I can tell you that much. I want to talk about a show, not an idea of a show months before the show airs.

Her being a role model is utterly immaterial. I would bet real money that pretty much nobody thinks very much in terms of how good a role model Jon Snow or Robb Stark are, people are allowed to find them strong, badass, awesome, admirable, etc, without vetting them for every possible angle of criticism first. Arianne is no political genius, but she’s confident, passionate, shows initiative, understands many flaws of Westerosi patriarchy and can criticise it without hating other women like Cersei does, and is also caring and capable of learning. Honestly that probably relates more to most audience members’ lives than whether or not she can successfully pull off political coups, something that has just about zero relevance to most people. She has flaws, sure, she’s rash and she is insecure and allows her insecurity to drive her to do rash things. She got in over her head, but she obviously has a good heart. People can find her awesome without having to justify it by proving she’s a role model. I don’t think we seriously have to be concerned that the female youth of America are recklessly endangering the lives of stupidly chivalrous guys and calling it Feminism. There’s plenty else, like her sex positivity, assertiveness, and sense of sisterhood.

"People can find her awesome without having to justify it by proving she’s a role model." It seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle that that’s exactly the point I was making. 

It seemed confusing to me to bring up her role model status at all if it is actually immaterial (unless I forgot how to read it doesn’t seem that it was mentioned in the original ask), but maybe I missed a post, very possible. I don’t keep up with this fandom that much any more.